Daniel Satinsky: All right. Let's get started with this by me asking you how you first became involved with Russia and why?

Trevor Gunn: I was an exchange student in Sweden from 1979 to 1980.

Daniel Satinsky: Where did you grow up?

Trevor Gunn: California. From there, I went to Sweden. There was no internet back then. No one did exchange programs to anywhere. If you went to Russia, you know all the reasons. There were three or four Americans in the town, and my best friend was of Jewish descent, originally from Odessa. He wanted to learn Russian, and there was a Russian class being offered. He asked me to join. I didn't understand Swedish, hardly understood French, and certainly didn't understand Russian. So I thought, let's give it a shot. Honestly, I just had the nicest teacher in the world, who really made Russian so fun. And that's where it started. Then I came back and started university, becoming very interested in Eastern Europe and the Soviet bloc. That was at the University of San Francisco, a small Jesuit university in San Francisco. It grew from there.

Daniel Satinsky: And you studied Russian?

Trevor Gunn: Yes, not intensely. The University of San Francisco would offer Russian one year and then drop it. I would go to these summer courses, but it never really took off. As the Swedes would say, my butt never got out of the wagon. It never moved. I never had one of those big breakthroughs, so it stayed at a poor but consistent level over a long period. I took a course at Berkeley one summer when USF dropped it. Long story short, I started my PhD at the University of Toronto from USF, intending to study Soviet studies with Tim Colton.

Daniel Satinsky: Oh, yeah, I know Tim. Yeah.

Trevor Gunn: But I wasn't ready to continue on a PhD path. So, I went back to San Francisco, flipped pizzas, cut sandwiches for a year, rethought it, and decided I needed a more practical, policy-oriented path. So I started at George Washington University, still doing Soviet studies and Russia. The dean told me if I was serious about it, I should leave. I looked around and decided to go to LSE, where I ended up doing my whole PhD on the Soviet Union. They just made my dissertation electronic two years ago.

Daniel Satinsky: Really?

Trevor Gunn: Yes, after all these years. Then I worked in Sweden at the Chamber of Commerce, helping Swedish companies. My wife and I relocated back to the United States. Around that time, the Soviet Union broke apart fully. The Commerce Department was looking to open an office. Pyotr Ivan and Barbara Hackman Franklin, the Ccommerce Ssecretary at that stage, opened that office. It was BISNIS as it is today. I was a trade specialist, sweeping the floor, making coffee for everyone.

Daniel Satinsky: It was an agreement between the Russian government and the US government to open an office inside the Commerce Department?

Trevor Gunn: Yes. The office had an investment and trade mission. It was funded under the Support for Eastern European Democracy (SEED) Act and the Freedom Support Act, which created the office at the State Department for coordination on all assistance programs. Our creation was called out in the economic programs.

Other related programs included the US Trade Development Agency, the expansion of the US Foreign Commercial Service into interesting places in the former Soviet Union, and more coverage at both OPIC and Exxon for the region. Things that might be considered borderline technical assistance.

Daniel Satinsky: Do you know, this is a side question because I don't want to interrupt the flow of this, but you know if there's somewhere in which these programs are cataloged?

Trevor Gunn: Well, certainly. You can look back in terms of the creation of the programs under the Freedom Support Act. We were named specifically under that act. I would guess that if the Commerce Department has an archive, it would have something there. There are people still there who know well. My dad was the head of that unit. You might remember Jack Brougher.

When we created the Business Information Service for the Newly Independent States (BISNIS), these were the guys. Before the creation of BISNIS, all business inquiries from the former Soviet Union would come to this one office. The thought was, hey, we need more support. Economics as a part of national security, trade, and investment is a good thing. Let's cement democratization, right? So our office was created. More or less alongside them.

So Jack Brougher, for many years… Talk about a guy that knows. Jack Brougher could tell you everything. He'd be like the top historian on this. His immediate deputy, Matt Edwards, is still there today, he was the head of the former Soviet office at the Commerce Department. BISNIS's mission in the former Soviet Union was to help businesses.

Daniel Satinsky: Help U.S. businesses.

Trevor Gunn: Yes. There were areas where we collaborated, feeding into policy stuff, but we were mainly there to inform and guide, particularly in faraway places. The typical Foreign Commercial Service was confined to embassies and consulates. The commercial service wasn't even represented in many places like Tbilisi, Baku, and Dushanbe. It certainly wasn't represented outside of the consulate/diplomatic network. So, for example, Dan Russell sitting in Yekaterinburg had diplomatic protocol restrictions; they couldn't have people working for the U.S. government outside of those walls. But BISNIS created a whole different network of people, often outside embassies, representing us in important business locations. We thought the real future of business opportunities lay there. So, we did some pretty entrepreneurial things to support the mission of American business across the country.

Daniel Satinsky: So you moved to Moscow?

Trevor Gunn: No, I was always Washington, D.C.-based. At the high point, we hired people in all these places. They reported to our office, and there were 34 people in the BISNIS network.

Daniel Satinsky: So how did you get the idea to do this, Trevor?

Trevor Gunn: It wasn't really my idea, to be honest. I saw the job announcement and thought it related to me. I knew a little about business and a little Russian, which made me unique. So I applied for the job. But it was inspired by the success of similar programs in Eastern Europe, like the creation of investment funds in Poland.

Trevor Gunn: I'm thinking about where you can find these nodal points of assistance that led to the creation of BISNIS. There was always a debate between the different portfolio programs. The way I looked at BISNIS, we were managed by the Commerce Department, but the chairman of my board was at the State Department. That was Bill Taylor or someone else, which protected us and allowed us to focus on foreign policy things. The Commerce Department's mission isn't to promote outbound foreign direct investment, but it was okay in this case because it was Russia, which is always the exception.


The Commerce Department is now focused 100% on inbound foreign investment. But historically, we survived quite well. I started in 1992 and left in 2004 for Medtronic. Around 2000, the debate began about scaling back or eliminating assistance programs. The idea was that Russia and other countries had transitioned to market economies, so these programs should be either scaled back or eliminated. That marked the beginning of the end for BISNIS. By 2006, economic and business programs like BISNIS were gone from the U.S. government, though some programs were integrated into normal offices.

Daniel Satinsky: So the exceptionalism of Russia was eliminated by that time.

Trevor Gunn: Yes, for Russia and other former Soviet states from an economic and business standpoint. The democratization and other programs might still exist today, but the economic focus changed.

Daniel Satinsky: By 2006?

Trevor Gunn: Yes. I was there for 12 years, from 1992 to 2004.

Daniel Satinsky: And after you left, the program just...

Trevor Gunn: It continued for a bit. I was able to bring in some business constituents to keep it moving for a couple of years after I left, but the State Department eventually decided not to support these programs anymore.

Daniel Satinsky: So how did you go about developing this model and finding the people to implement it?

Trevor Gunn: So in the very beginning. I wasn't the first director, Dan. I was the chief bottle washer, shoeshine guy, and picked up the trash for everyone. And I'm very proud of that. The woman they found to head up the office initially was from the agency. Given the level of intelligence around the region at that moment, 1989, it was confined to a small group of people, right? You included, and a few others. Again, no internet, remember? You know, there was nothing there.

Daniel Satinsky: I remember the fax machine, two hours to get through.

Trevor Gunn: Exactly. So, 90% of the people that ended up being recruited in terms of the DC office staff were from the outside. There was a guy who works at Nabisco today, another woman at AIG in political risk. Pretty much all of them were from the outside. There was an open recruitment drive to find people.

Daniel Satinsky: And then you opened an office in Moscow?

Trevor Gunn: No, no. It was DC based.

Daniel Satinsky: So what about Russian people?

Trevor Gunn: We lived within the infrastructure of the embassies and consulates. But we took it one step further by hiring people outside of those embassies, which was legal but controversial. We didn't have a consulate in Tomsk, but there was business in Tomsk. So we recruited a smart local person, supplied them with computers, and got them up and running in their home offices. It was a logistics nightmare, but we made it work. I remember the first woman we recruited in Nizhny Novgorod, the same thing. We also put people in places like Baku, where the country didn't want to put anyone. So we placed someone there, within embassy walls in Baku, Tbilisi, and Yerevan.

Daniel Satinsky: How did you hire the local people? Did they come to you, or did you have to seek them out?

Trevor Gunn: In some cases, we put announcements in the newspaper. We also solicited help. By then, many returnees from American assistance programs knew a little about America. They could have been from IREX or similar programs. There was also CUMBA, which you might remember, Russian-speaking MBAs who started applying to Western programs to get MBAs. With time, we found many people who were graduates of U.S. schools, not just short-term technical assistance programs. It was a variety of methods. I remember calling up oil and gas companies and saying, "We're looking to open up something new. Do you know anyone who speaks English and understands business?" We hired people from various backgrounds. For example, in Khabarovsk, we hired a cardiologist who had been to the U.S. on a rotary program and knew a bit about business. He opened an office as part of a bigger structure.

Daniel Satinsky: What was their job as local representatives? Were they there to look for business?

Trevor Gunn: The primary functions were gathering information and reporting what they saw. For example, sector-specific reports like the automotive sector. No one knew how things worked in the newly market-oriented economy, especially outside Moscow. They also looked for trade opportunities and investment opportunities. They had to know their communities and districts, some of which were very large, covering 4 or 5 time zones. It was a huge task. But we got the job done.

Daniel Satinsky: So once they identified opportunities, they sent them to you in Washington?

Trevor Gunn: Absolutely. You have to understand the role of technology here. Initially, everything was controlled by diplomatic protocol and cables. Information had to be submitted through those channels, classified or not. We received the information, and when we opened the office, we had five clients. When I left, we had 67,000 clients.

Daniel Satinsky: Wow. 67,000?

Trevor Gunn: Yes, and we had the first website in the Department of Commerce before the Commerce Department had a website. We were ahead in many ways. Initially, we retyped parts of those cables and sent them out via fax. With the advent of the internet, we started emailing them to clients.

Daniel Satinsky: And the number of clients grew.

Trevor Gunn: If we had questions, we could always go back to them. But I believed that taxpayers deserved access to this information, and it needed to be actionable.

Daniel Satinsky: Did you screen those opportunities?

Trevor Gunn: Yes, we conducted due diligence, though it was extremely difficult, especially at the beginning. Over time, with the advent of law firms, Russian lawyers, and service companies like Deloitte, it became easier. But it was still challenging. We screened the opportunities as much as we could, but often lost visibility on those leads.

We believed it was important to connect the U.S. and Eurasia in business. We did innovative things, like creating the first Ukrainian and Russian language websites focused on trade with America. We also published a book, "The Business Summit," which was a guide for doing business with America, written in Russian.

Daniel Satinsky: What year was that?

Trevor Gunn: Around 2000 to 2002. We also published a Ukrainian version. It was like sending signals to the region on their terms, making it easier for them to understand what they were looking for.

Daniel Satinsky: Once you posted these opportunities, what role did you play in any follow-up or transactions?

Trevor Gunn: Quite a lot. As we expanded the overseas network, we gathered more information and had better opportunities. We launched an Oracle database across the network, where they had to enter and follow up on clients monthly. It was their responsibility to communicate locally with those clients and see where things went.

Daniel Satinsky: Did you get results from this, or did it just remain in limbo?

Trevor Gunn: We did see results. I remember reporting that we contributed to about $2.4 billion in U.S. business. These were trade and investment transactions that we closely followed up on. Honestly, at times, I often feel like we had a better follow-up system than we do now.

Daniel Satinsky: Were your regional representatives a relatively stable group of people, or was there a lot of churn?

Trevor Gunn: Relatively stable, but they were very talented and had opportunities elsewhere, which they often took. In some regions, like Moscow, there were many opportunities, and we couldn't compete with the salaries. But in faraway places, the opportunities were limited, so those positions were more stable.

Daniel Satinsky: Was there a history of BISNIS or a summary report that might be available somewhere?

Trevor Gunn: I'm sure there is, but it's from 17 years ago.

Daniel Satinsky: Where might it be? I have a research assistant from the Fletcher School who's helping me.

Trevor Gunn: The State Department certainly would be the programmatic start. We did annual reports to the State Department. There must be archives at the State Department and Commerce Department. But finding someone who can lay hands on it might be challenging. But I do remember a lot of those metrics.

Daniel Satinsky: You gave a lot to this program, so you're going to remember it.

Trevor Gunn: There's probably more out there than I believe. Unfortunately, most references to BISNIS on the internet are gone.

Daniel Satinsky: I did a quick search, and many programs like the Business to Russia program, which took more than 800 people a year to the U.S., are not there.

Trevor Gunn: It's important to get a hold of people like Dan Rosenblum, who were at the highest level. Congress allocated the money, and the State Department divided it into specific programs. When I left, our program cost about $1.9 million, almost entirely salaries. At the high point, it was maybe $2.3 million. But at a higher level, Smithsonian or Congress people will remember a lot of that stuff. It just won't be easily found on the internet. Our case had virtually no decision-making power. They were basically a checkbook because the State Department couldn't fund our program directly. They had to go through a transfer agreement with USAID. I can't remember many discussions with USAID about our program. However, other programs were central to USAID. Gloria Steele, a very high official in USAID, would be a good person to contact. Gloria Steele with an E. She might help. We all lived through it. If you're even slightly patriotic, you should be responsive.

Daniel Satinsky: I'll give that a try. Going back to business, are there any particular deals that stick out in your mind that were important or notable?

Trevor Gunn: Off the top of my head, several stand out. In the beginning, I focused a lot on the telecommunications sector. I remember working with US West and Andrew Corporation on fiber optics and satellite projects in Russia. We were also involved in several cellular deals across the former Soviet Union when they were was a US investor.

I remember actively working on cases where we weren't just starting new deals but also rescuing existing ones. We made significant contributions to entire sectors, not just individual companies. I dealt with minerals and mining, forestry, and telecommunications deals during my time with BISNIS.

Daniel Satinsky: Telecom was such an underdeveloped sector in Soviet times, and there was a rush to establish it.

Trevor Gunn: It was incredible. There were also a lot of bad experiences for American companies. We had to pull one investor out of a deal in Russia due to threats of physical harm and other issues. Just a heads up, I have a hard stop in a few minutes.

Daniel Satinsky: Yes, that's what we agreed on. I appreciate your time, Trevor. If you think of other people I should talk to, please let me know.