Daniel Satinsky: So, you started to say that Harriett had a role.
Anya Kucharev: Yes. Harriett helped rescue Joseph from the psychiatric ward.
Daniel Satinsky: And she was able to do that?
Anya Kucharev: Yes. I can’t remember the details, but I can…
Daniel Satinsky: You don’t need to. I don’t want to stretch you to find every detail, but I just—
Anya Kucharev: No-no. This is interesting to me because I would like to remember something like that. He had pull, because, you know, the Soviets knew who had money. So, you know, if Harriett called Velikhov it was because he knew she had more pull here. That’s…
Daniel Satinsky: I see.
Anya Kucharev: Not because he wanted money, but because he knew that the NGOs depended on funding, and it was important. And Tanya would know, yeah. That’s very interesting. That was—the AHP was involved, ah. Harriett Crosby was part of the Association of Humanistic Psychology, and a lot of good material and intercultural communications, especially in psychology, came out of that. And then Steve Coll became part of the Levada… No, there’s some important…yeah. ISAR was a real entity
Daniel Satinsky: They became part of the Levada polling organization?
Anya Kucharev: Sorry?
Daniel Satinsky: They became part of Levada’s polling?
Anya Kucharev: Yeah. I think he helped set it up, yes. He had been part of the AHP, and very active. Those first trips were very groundbreaking because we interviewed a lot of people who practiced psychotherapy, which was on the rise in the classical psychiatrists, child psychologists, and people like Tom Greening made very close friends with some of them, and they continued for 20, 30 years. Fran Macy died a couple of years ago—no, not a couple already, jeez. He had been a Russian scholar and went into the Peace Corps, so Macy was very important. He pulled in the ecology people, Yablokov. So, like I said, personal relationships were very important, because a certain level of respect professionally has to happen, and then if there’s a personal—
Daniel Satinsky: Personal relationship.
Anya Kucharev: —like chemistry and you have a connection there, then that’s productive. And that work has continued.
Daniel Satinsky: And so, you introduced Joel to Joseph because Joel was interested in communications, and I know Joseph had this vision of the screens and, you know.
Anya Kucharev: Yes, exactly. There was that. And also, we went to the Peace Committee. I said, “Joel, you’re not going to like this, but we have to make a courtesy, we have to pay a courtesy call to the official Peace Committee so that you get an understanding of the bureaucracy, and what they say, and what they think peace is, and how to achieve it.” And that was a way to understand what Joseph was dealing with, what kind of bureaucracy he had to surmount and implement his ideas. He had very good backing, but you also…
Oh, some of my people that I took over, they just didn’t understand that you can’t march in and do whatever you want anywhere. They just… But this is a great idea, and it should be… I said, listen, they want to know who you are, why you’re doing this, what you can bring, and what you want to take away, so you can’t just barge in. And they would say oh, this isn’t working. I said they’re on a different time scale. They’re not going to answer your phone calls. They’re just not. That’s not how they work. They have to meet with so-and-so, get it approved, da-da-da, the wheel has to start turning.
So, Joseph had this backlog of relationships that he had already founded. He knew people in Tbilisi because they had come to Moscow, because like Victor Krivorotov, the healer, who met with the guy Whitmore from England who was interested in psychology and sports. They met because Krivorotov’s father was a famous healer. Everybody knew his name. And Joseph knew Krivorotov, so all of those people that were in the avant-garde, it has to be sub rosa at first, but as the ‘80s opened up it was easier. We also introduced Sharon Tennison. I gave her the Esalen contact list. Did she ever say thank you? No. But that’s a different story. But she did a great deal, but she never came to Esalen, which is, I mean, it’s extraordinary. You’re working in the same… However, as fate would have it, they met in Moscow in the ‘90s in Red Square after all those years. And it’s just like, whoa, like… No, it must have been 2000s—yes, 2000s.
Daniel Satinsky: 2000? Wow.
Anya Kucharev: In the 2000s, yes. I have a photo because Evelyn and Kim were there videoing with the Murphys, and they all happened to meet at Red Square. [Laughs.] And I looked at this photo and I went okay, they couldn’t meet in California, where they’re 60 miles away from each other.
Daniel Satinsky: But I thought that she had an office in the Sacramento Street.
Anya Kucharev: She did, but Esalen didn’t.
Daniel Satinsky: Esalen didn’t. Ah.
Anya Kucharev: No. Washington Street—
Daniel Satinsky: Okay, that’s what Kim was telling me, that you were—he said they were with the Washington Institute on Washington Street, but not in Sacramento Street.
Anya Kucharev: Yes, that’s—
Daniel Satinsky: Okay, got it. I’ve got to correct that in my notes.
Anya Kucharev: Yes. I’ll send you—I can photograph and send you. Washington Street was a three story—well, with the basement it was a four story, just a residential building. And Henry Dakin got called in because the neighbors said what are all these people coming in here at all hours of the night? What’s going on here? So, Jim lived upstairs and had an office. Then there were offices that Henry used. He had conference transcription, he had translation. He had so many interests. And then downstairs was his personal—that was for the people working with computers. He’d sit you down and put you in front of a computer and say good luck and walk out. [Laughs.] And then on the first floor was a kitchen, a big living room, and his back office. And then downstairs were the parapsychological experiments they did.
Daniel Satinsky: Yeah, Jim mentioned that they constructed some machinery and some—
Anya Kucharev: Yes. It was—yes. So, Henry, that building got too small and Henry moved to an auto body shop, a beautiful building on the outside, and he just gutted it and made a penthouse for meetings. That was Sacramento Street. Very important—
Daniel Satinsky: That was Sacramento Street.
Anya Kucharev: —hub. 3220 was a front line intellectual and activist center. Very—Joel had his office there for a while. Very important.
Daniel Satinsky: Right. So, I had heard it described elsewhere as a kind of an incubator for social activism.
Anya Kucharev: Yes, that’s one—yes. The UN Association didn’t have an office there; they had a cubbyhole. They would use it to meet. So, lots of people came through.
Daniel Satinsky: So, in a newspaper article about Joel’s work I read that he initially—or maybe he told me this—he was initially funded by the Washington Institute, by Henry.
Anya Kucharev: Yes. It’s unfortunate that Henry chose that title because it’s Washington Street, but it’s not Washington, Washington, so people got confused. They said oh, it’s a bunch of spies there. I mean, the whole thing was ridiculous, just because of the name.
Daniel Satinsky: Right. But so—and this was before Joel met Soros, who I guess became his main funder.
Anya Kucharev: Yes.
Daniel Satinsky: But Henry was. And there was some other person’s name who was also supposedly an entrepreneur or something who helped funding.
Anya Kucharev: Yes. Mitchell Waite was a computer entrepreneur early, and he published—he had an office at Henry’s, at 3220, and he published…I actually never looked at that book. But Henry was learning desktop publishing. That’s why “Information Moscow” came out. I should actually send you—I do have an old copy. I can send it to you.
Daniel Satinsky: Really? That would be fantastic.
Anya Kucharev: Yeah. Do I even have one to show? Well, you’ll see it.
Daniel Satinsky: Or just take a picture of the cover of it and send it to me if you don’t want to get rid of it.
Anya Kucharev: No-no-no. I’ll send it to you because the reason why it even got published was Henry’s interest in desktop publishing. We were the most comprehensive book that came out. It was 500 pages, “Trade and Travel Directory.”
I collected the articles. It was a way for me to open up, so the Westerners weren’t afraid to go. This was ’85 when I came upon this small guide that Victor Louis, who was a famous—he wasn’t a spy, he was an agent. He drove around the Soviet Union with his English wife Jennifer, and they created a map of all the roads you could go on, but none of the diplomats could go out because it was off territory, and we mentioned things like that. Anyway, I took this thing, and I thought, you know, you could really do something here to open up. Especially entrepreneurs were afraid to go. In fact, the commercial office had nothing to give entrepreneurs in the ‘80s, and they sold my book illegally there.
Daniel Satinsky: [Laughs.] Really?
Anya Kucharev: Yes.
Daniel Satinsky: Interesting.
Anya Kucharev: And the secretary, she said oh, you have no idea how happy I am that you did this book because I can’t answer all those questions. They come in here and I don’t know what to tell them. There’re no phone books. There were no phone books.
Daniel Satinsky: Right. Well, in the early ‘90s I published, with a Russian friend, a directory of Yaroslavl Oblast, which was also unknown territory.
Daniel Satinsky: Of course, yeah. There you go. Well, so Victor Louis had this thing, and I bought the rights from the Dimes Group. He did business in the Soviet Union. I never could figure out what it was, but it didn’t matter. We were able—oh, I wanted to tell you, I think you should talk to—and she loves to talk, unless she’s not well—the daughter of George Kennan, Grace Kennan. Why?
Daniel Satinsky: Why?
Anya Kucharev: She actually created a program for women in Petersburg to study entrepreneurship, and they helped them create small businesses.
Daniel Satinsky: Really? When?
Anya Kucharev: Yes.
Daniel Satinsky: What years was that? In the ‘80s or ‘90s?
Anya Kucharev: I think in the ‘90s. In the ‘90s.
Daniel Satinsky: ‘90s, really? Wow.
Anya Kucharev: Yeah, she became a good friend, but I lost track of her. There’s just so many things. She was very important in the early years because of who she was and her continuing interest in the Soviet Union. Grace is…she’s a lovely human being, and she really…she used her connections because everybody knew who her father was. It was called Sovus, S-O-V-U-S. I don’t have anything I can show you, but I will give you her email address and phone number.
Daniel Satinsky: That would be fantastic.
Anya Kucharev: And she just wrote a memoir two or three years ago. I can’t remember the title. She was raised as a young child in Russia because her father was ambassador for a while.
Daniel Satinsky: Right. Wow.
Anya Kucharev: Yeah, she’s—
Daniel Satinsky: It’s Grace Kennan, so I could just Google that.
Anya Kucharev: Grace W., Warnecke for her last husband, Kennan, yeah. She helped me host an artist’s exhibit at St. John the Divine. Her apartment wasn’t very far away, and so I was able to… Yeah, she’s a really incredible human being.
I mean, Grace was a photographer, and we got her into this “One Day in the Life of the Soviet Union” book. She was editor of photographs for that. That was the right person to do it.
Daniel Satinsky: Yes. Exactly the right person.
Anya Kucharev: So, those synchronicities, when they fell together, were perfect sometimes. And sometimes there’s a parallel track, but it’s in different areas. But the interest is still there.