#Citizen Diplomacy
Former Massachusetts State Senator
Friends of Pskov
Former Massachusetts State Senator, Stan Rosenberg was one of the organizers of an extensive citizen diplomacy project linking the Russian city of Pskov and a Massachusetts group of politicians, businesspeople, and medical professionals that continued for more than 20 years. Senator Rosenberg’s district included Amherst, Massachusetts, home of UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the UMass system. Shortly after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, UMass Amherst received grant funding from IREX and later USAID to build exchange programs with Pskov Polytechnic Institute. At the beginning of that program, Senator Rosenberg taught a course on the American political system in Pskov. This led to his involvement in organizing exchanges of delegations going each direction. He was a co-founder of Massachusetts Friends of Pskov, an organization that supported development of civil society in Pskov through private fundraising after expiration of the USAID funding, focusing on medical care, health education, and treatment of orphans.
Former Massachusetts State Senator
Friends of Pskov
Former Massachusetts State Senator, Stan Rosenberg was one of the organizers of an extensive citizen diplomacy project linking the Russian city of Pskov and a Massachusetts group of politicians, businesspeople, and medical professionals that continued for more than 20 years. Senator Rosenberg’s district included Amherst, Massachusetts, home of UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the UMass system. Shortly after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, UMass Amherst received grant funding from IREX and later USAID to build exchange programs with Pskov Polytechnic Institute. At the beginning of that program, Senator Rosenberg taught a course on the American political system in Pskov. This led to his involvement in organizing exchanges of delegations going each direction. He was a co-founder of Massachusetts Friends of Pskov, an organization that supported development of civil society in Pskov through private fundraising after expiration of the USAID funding, focusing on medical care, health education, and treatment of orphans.
Daniel Satinsky: So, let's start with how you got involved with people from Pskov or from Russia.
Stan Rosenberg: When the wall came down, the US and Russian governments connected colleges and universities to engage in academic exchange. The University of Massachusetts Amherst had key people interested in this work. They wrote a proposal and got funding for eight courses in Pskov.
Daniel Satinsky: How did they get connected to Pskov?
Stan Rosenberg: I don’t know, but I can put you in touch with the guy who knows. The project was funded for six or eight courses, and I was asked to teach a course in the American political system. I was a state legislator and had never taught a college course before, but they said they’d help me. Once I started thinking about it, I realized I could do it. I organized the curriculum and went to Russia with another person from West Springfield. We were paired up because they always sent people in pairs.
Daniel Satinsky: What year was this?
Stan Rosenberg: I can't remember exactly, but we can figure it out.
Daniel Satinsky: And you had never been there before?
Stan Rosenberg: Never been to Russia, but I had done a fair amount of traveling as a legislator. I enjoyed traveling, being in different cultures, and exchanging views. I was an elected official but considered myself a citizen diplomat. We spent three weeks there, and I taught five days a week.
Daniel Satinsky: In English?
Stan Rosenberg: In English, with a translator. There were a couple of translators that I worked with, one of whom was Sergei Kovalenko, who I assume you interviewed on your UMass technology exchange. He and his wife came here after a while, and they are both successful in the American economy. He is in tech, and she is a professor at Suffolk University and a respected business professor. If you haven't talked to him, you may want to, as he was part of this experience. I befriended him because he met me at the airport and helped with translations.
Stan Rosenberg: After the successful program of 6 or 8 courses, UMass was either approached or approached USAID and wrote a three-year project grant, receiving about $2.5 million. This was for a three-part project: developing an academic program at Pskov Polytechnic Institute, a business exchange, and a political exchange. I was asked to coordinate the political exchanges. I worked on that grant for three years, and we did at least 4 or 5 exchanges, bringing people here as well as us going there.
Daniel Satinsky: And that was when you hosted people at your house?
Stan Rosenberg: Yes, that was later.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay. Was this Russia or the Soviet Union? Do you remember?
Stan Rosenberg: The wall was gone, relations were being developed. This was a tool that the governments were using to connect Russians and Americans in areas of mutual concern and interest. At the beginning, they were mainly learning about us, but we made it a point to always be asking questions about them and their systems, making it mutually beneficial. We always framed it as engaging in mutually beneficial exchange.
Stan Rosenberg: When this grant was completed, they had an academic department that they had started. Years later, it was one of the most successful and enrolled departments. It wasn't a technology program but involved regional planning and business development, using some technologies like GIS. We established connections between Massachusetts and Pskov people in the business sphere and went deep on politics.
Stan Rosenberg: At the end of the grant, the federal money was gone. We tried to find more federal money, but they weren't continuing those kinds of programs. We argued that you can't open lines of communication and build relationships and then stop funding. We founded the Massachusetts Friends of Pskov and gathered individuals who had been involved, raising money in different ways and sending delegations over.
Daniel Satinsky: And Friends of Pskov was incorporated, organizing you know just an association of.
Stan Rosenberg: An association, a loose association of very loose people.
Daniel Satinsky: And that would have been probably around 1994-1995 somewhere early.
Stan Rosenberg: Early to mid 90s. And then we would piece together money to do our delegations. Sorry. That was an interruption of a phone call. When I get a phone call that will happen, and I'll just get a client. So we had a very successful time of raising money, and we raised $30,000 to $50,000 at a time. And that wasn't chicken feed.
Daniel Satinsky: No, not at all.
Stan Rosenberg: And then we partnered with an organization that sent used, reusable medical equipment. And that represented our first major project outside of the grant relationship that had developed as a result of the federal intervention or initiation. So what we did was, as I said, we always talked about mutual benefit. And we had befriended some people and got pretty close to them, and they became the go-to people. And we would ask them at each visit, what are the challenges you're facing here these days? It would be very informal, and it wouldn't be structured conversations, although they always set up meetings with the mayor and with the governor and with this and with that because they thought we were more important than we really were. They thought when I was there during my first year of teaching the course, I was Senator Rosenberg. So they thought I was a U.S. senator. And he rolled out the red carpet, so to speak. But they also were constantly asking me, where's the $40 billion? The U.S. government had promised $40 billion. So they figured if I'm the senator, I should be able to get the money right. So it was. But that, you know, they eventually learned that we were the little politicians, not the big public.
Daniel Satinsky: Not the big politicians. Where did that number 40 billion come from?
Stan Rosenberg: You know, I just pulled that out of the air because I didn't remember the number.
Daniel Satinsky: It was a big number.
Stan Rosenberg: It was a big number. And they said where is, when is this coming? And of course, we're talking to people and stuff, but we were talking to governors. The governor of Pskov. And so therefore. And the governor of Pskov would, of course, have a relationship with the president and with the Federal Duma and everything. So we knew we were being asked on behalf not the governor because the governor doesn't get the $40 billion or whatever, it's going to be the federal government. So we would ask what you are working on? What are you thinking about? What are the challenges society's facing? Never judgmentally. And then we didn't get into, well this is how we do it. We didn't try to lecture them and say this is the way, but we would engage with them in a way that there was discussion and a dialog, and then we could eventually say, well do you think it would help if we work together on blank? So the first major thing you think would help if we worked on a blank was improving medical technology and access to medical technology. And they did it on behalf of the Poor People's Hospital. So there was the rich people's hospital, and then there was the poor people's hospital. And so we were talking to the Boston Medical Center as opposed to Mass General.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay.
Stan Rosenberg: And so do you think you could help us find. And we said, well, let's see. And we eventually connected.
Daniel Satinsky: The people you were talking to are ordinary citizens. They're not the elected officials but they're people that you met through your travel.
Stan Rosenberg: Well. Oh, okay. So I'll use a few names. So Romansova. Well, why am I blanking? Tanya? Yeah. So Tanya Romansova was the government affairs person for the City of Pskov. And then she was the government affairs person for the province for the. Was the. And so we developed an extremely close relationship with her. She would often be the translator. She would be the host. We planned all of our visits with her as the go-between. And so she was part of the government but she also would bring in people who were not part of the government. And so we'd be sitting at the V's table and that, and then at Alexia's table and so on. And so we would slowly be building these relationships in civil society as well as in government. And so we found a foundation that specializes in finding and shipping containers of used but usable medical equipment to second and third world situations. And so we partnered with them and over time we probably did for over a four-year period, four, five, six-year period, we probably did for shipping containers full of equipment. And when the equipment in the first batch got there, which was quite challenging but we raised all the money. The foundation found the equipment. They took care of the shipping. We paid the bill. We all organized to make sure that when it got there, it would get into Pskov and then it would get into the right hands.
Daniel Satinsky: Right.
Stan Rosenberg: So it wasn't the secondary market. That wouldn't be cleared of the best stuff. And we were very successful at being able to keep the rails, keep stuff within the rails. And when a couple of the doctors went in to see the shipment of material, they went crazy. They were like, wow. Because they were used to getting piles of junk, unused mattresses and whatever. And so when they saw the quality of what was in the shipment, they got very excited and started making lists because they were figuring if you guys can bring us this without telling you what we needed. So as I said, we probably did four shipments over the course of six or so years.
Daniel Satinsky: And remember roughly what it would cost for those shipments.
Stan Rosenberg: I think we were spending probably $30,000. All in, you know, getting it there. I'm sorry. Finding it. Shipping it. Getting it unloaded. Getting it through customs. Because there were fees and stuff like that on the other end. I'm going to say $30,000. And so then they started making lists. The doctor who took the greatest interest was an immunologist, and he found these in perfectly good workable condition. But machines that you need in an infectious disease lab which they did not have at the Poor People's Hospital. So he put together a list and gave it to us. And when we learned what he was all about, we agreed that we would bring an immunologist in our next delegation.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay.
Stan Rosenberg: And so that's one of the ways in which our group grew over time. And that's one example. Same thing happened with cranberry production. Tourism development. So we found things that were of interest and made sense to them. For various reasons that were consistent with their needs. So we were never telling them you should do this. We were always listening, and they were saying things like we're trying to get the airport reorganized and expanded so we could bring planes in. Well, why did you want to bring planes in? Well, we want to build a tourism industry. Why do you want to build a tourism industry? Well, you know, we were the first city in Russia. Pskov was where Russia began. We have all of this history. We have all of this. Interesting. So we said isn't that exciting? So Pskov was the first landing point in Russia? You understand us. It's so exciting. Well, of course we understand you because we have Plymouth, Massachusetts, which is where the pilgrims landed. So we were the birthplace of America. Look at another thing we have in common. And it was. This is how it went. It rolled like this for 25 years. About 25 years.
Daniel Satinsky: That is amazing.
Stan Rosenberg: So I gave you a couple of examples right? I gave you a deeper example in the medical and then I touched on a series of other examples of how we did this and how it kept expanding and expanding and expanding. So let me go back to the medical. So we were able to get him the material for his lab and we brought the immunologist over. That led to a deepening relationship. And they came up with projects and ideas that related to what they were doing. And so it built. So shortly after the immunology lab got set up, there was discussion about STDs because, of course, immunology takes you to disease, infectious disease which takes you to societal problem of sexually transmitted diseases which, of course, in Russia nobody talks about because it doesn't exist.
Daniel Satinsky: Right.
Stan Rosenberg: And AIDS didn't exist except the doctors knew it did. And so they said what can we do together around AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases? So we built a program. And brought it to Rotary International. And we got funded $300,000 over a three-year period to build out a series of programs and projects relating to helping young people. Give me a second to bring back the phrase.
Daniel Satinsky: Right.
Stan Rosenberg: So to help them make appropriate personal decisions.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay.
Stan Rosenberg: And that led to the creation of curriculum. It led to the creation of a youth center that we funded. And then eventually the city picked it up, and it was a place for young people to come to gather and to be in a youth center to have constructive time with activities that would be appropriate for young people, taking up more of their time. So they weren't getting into trouble like getting into drugs, weren't getting into sexual contact that was going to be problematic for them.
Daniel Satinsky: So that quick question was there a Rotary Club there in Pskov?
Stan Rosenberg: Not at the time, and I don't think there is. Oh, they formed a Rotary Club. That's part of the project.
Daniel Satinsky: Part of the project?
Stan Rosenberg: The Rotary Club and Victor Baybekov. Who is the oligarch in the region? Was the guy who took charge of helping to organize the Rotary Club. I don't know if it's still going. I don't know the situation, but they organized a fledgling Rotary Club as part of the project.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay. Got it. Got it.
Stan Rosenberg: So that's the pattern that we went through. We would identify something with the help of our friends. And our group of friends kept growing and growing and growing in Pskov, and we would keep adding people here with the specialties that were relevant to the work that they wanted to do there. And so the relationships became extremely deep and close. I mean there was a list of families that the delegation or portions of the delegation visited at their dacha with their home or both. Every single visit. They exchanged gifts. They exchanged holiday greetings and birthday greetings. You know, the good times, the sad times. And it was just, it was amazing what could be built.
Daniel Satinsky: So how many people were involved in your group?
Stan Rosenberg: You know, we never calculated how many people we took over. But on one trip, we had about 15 in our delegation. And concurrent with that, we organized the tourism. Visit which was a tour. Not part of our government thing. They were tourists. And there were 30 of those people. So at one time on one visit, there were about 50 people from Massachusetts walking the streets of Pskov. And there were a couple of other times where we organized the hunting group, Americans who went hunting in Russia.
Daniel Satinsky: Boy.
Stan Rosenberg: Do I have stories from that.
Daniel Satinsky: I can imagine there was no alcohol involved in those stories, was there?
Stan Rosenberg: Absolutely none. And there weren't trees either with loaded guns. And sitting in trees with loaded guns in the middle of the night waiting for the bears. They came back with such story. They partied until the wee hours and then they said well it's time to go hunting. They took them into the woods. They got them up on the branches of big, big branches of big trees. They said you sit here that you must eat. The bears will come up.
Daniel Satinsky: And you have to get them good before they get you good.
Stan Rosenberg: Well these were very experienced American hunters. They crapped their pants. They were so scared. They were like they've been toasting for hours. Toasting and eating and stories. And they did the whole thing and then went hunting the morning, they go up into the trees and they're like what happened? Stan, what did you get us into? By the way, I was not there. I was comfortably in my bed.
Daniel Satinsky: But they tied themselves to the tree.
Stan Rosenberg: I have no idea. But they still tell the stories. But now with affection as well. There's laughter because it's a once in a lifetime experience, you know. And how many Americans have ever gone hunting with locals in Russia? So they have. That's their big fish story. So that's Pskov.
Daniel Satinsky: You would say probably hundreds of.
Stan Rosenberg: People. Hundreds and hundreds.
Daniel Satinsky: Waited in some form or.
Stan Rosenberg: Other and you're like, hundreds of people went back and forth contributed. Did you know about consultation calls and I mean all kinds of things. Hundreds and hundreds of people. But there was this core group of about 15 of us. And any given time there would be a dozen to 8 to 12 on a trip over. It just varied what the agenda was who was available. How much money could I raise? Because I was the nominal head of the group. And I drove a lot of the fundraising. Terry Murray, who you've met, helped a lot with the fundraising. Henry Rosenbach helped with the fundraising. Jay Curley over Blue Cross Blue Shield. We touched so many different places. And I'm going to say we probably raised a million and a half to $2 million well over a 20-year period.
Daniel Satinsky: So when you went to raise money, what was your pitch?
Stan Rosenberg: We didn't have to pay them. Exactly. That was it. You know, so if we called the foundation that was in Massachusetts like Blue Cross Foundation, I think contributed once the Blue Cross of Massachusetts company contributed every year 10 or $15,000 a year. And that was based on it. The senators are making another pilgrimage. They're bringing a doc, this doctor, that doctor. We ought to support them. Jay Curley, who was their vice president for government affairs at that time was a former Senate staffer. And he went, started going on the trips. So you know and then of course when you get a $300,000 three-year grant out of the Rotary Foundation, I think I'm remembering that accurately. I could be exaggerating but I think I'm.
Stan Rosenberg: When the wall came down, the US and Russian governments connected colleges and universities to engage in academic exchange. The University of Massachusetts Amherst had key people interested in this work. They wrote a proposal and got funding for eight courses in Pskov.
Daniel Satinsky: How did they get connected to Pskov?
Stan Rosenberg: I don’t know, but I can put you in touch with the guy who knows. The project was funded for six or eight courses, and I was asked to teach a course in the American political system. I was a state legislator and had never taught a college course before, but they said they’d help me. Once I started thinking about it, I realized I could do it. I organized the curriculum and went to Russia with another person from West Springfield. We were paired up because they always sent people in pairs.
Daniel Satinsky: What year was this?
Stan Rosenberg: I can't remember exactly, but we can figure it out.
Daniel Satinsky: And you had never been there before?
Stan Rosenberg: Never been to Russia, but I had done a fair amount of traveling as a legislator. I enjoyed traveling, being in different cultures, and exchanging views. I was an elected official but considered myself a citizen diplomat. We spent three weeks there, and I taught five days a week.
Daniel Satinsky: In English?
Stan Rosenberg: In English, with a translator. There were a couple of translators that I worked with, one of whom was Sergei Kovalenko, who I assume you interviewed on your UMass technology exchange. He and his wife came here after a while, and they are both successful in the American economy. He is in tech, and she is a professor at Suffolk University and a respected business professor. If you haven't talked to him, you may want to, as he was part of this experience. I befriended him because he met me at the airport and helped with translations.
Stan Rosenberg: After the successful program of 6 or 8 courses, UMass was either approached or approached USAID and wrote a three-year project grant, receiving about $2.5 million. This was for a three-part project: developing an academic program at Pskov Polytechnic Institute, a business exchange, and a political exchange. I was asked to coordinate the political exchanges. I worked on that grant for three years, and we did at least 4 or 5 exchanges, bringing people here as well as us going there.
Daniel Satinsky: And that was when you hosted people at your house?
Stan Rosenberg: Yes, that was later.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay. Was this Russia or the Soviet Union? Do you remember?
Stan Rosenberg: The wall was gone, relations were being developed. This was a tool that the governments were using to connect Russians and Americans in areas of mutual concern and interest. At the beginning, they were mainly learning about us, but we made it a point to always be asking questions about them and their systems, making it mutually beneficial. We always framed it as engaging in mutually beneficial exchange.
Stan Rosenberg: When this grant was completed, they had an academic department that they had started. Years later, it was one of the most successful and enrolled departments. It wasn't a technology program but involved regional planning and business development, using some technologies like GIS. We established connections between Massachusetts and Pskov people in the business sphere and went deep on politics.
Stan Rosenberg: At the end of the grant, the federal money was gone. We tried to find more federal money, but they weren't continuing those kinds of programs. We argued that you can't open lines of communication and build relationships and then stop funding. We founded the Massachusetts Friends of Pskov and gathered individuals who had been involved, raising money in different ways and sending delegations over.
Daniel Satinsky: And Friends of Pskov was incorporated, organizing you know just an association of.
Stan Rosenberg: An association, a loose association of very loose people.
Daniel Satinsky: And that would have been probably around 1994-1995 somewhere early.
Stan Rosenberg: Early to mid 90s. And then we would piece together money to do our delegations. Sorry. That was an interruption of a phone call. When I get a phone call that will happen, and I'll just get a client. So we had a very successful time of raising money, and we raised $30,000 to $50,000 at a time. And that wasn't chicken feed.
Daniel Satinsky: No, not at all.
Stan Rosenberg: And then we partnered with an organization that sent used, reusable medical equipment. And that represented our first major project outside of the grant relationship that had developed as a result of the federal intervention or initiation. So what we did was, as I said, we always talked about mutual benefit. And we had befriended some people and got pretty close to them, and they became the go-to people. And we would ask them at each visit, what are the challenges you're facing here these days? It would be very informal, and it wouldn't be structured conversations, although they always set up meetings with the mayor and with the governor and with this and with that because they thought we were more important than we really were. They thought when I was there during my first year of teaching the course, I was Senator Rosenberg. So they thought I was a U.S. senator. And he rolled out the red carpet, so to speak. But they also were constantly asking me, where's the $40 billion? The U.S. government had promised $40 billion. So they figured if I'm the senator, I should be able to get the money right. So it was. But that, you know, they eventually learned that we were the little politicians, not the big public.
Daniel Satinsky: Not the big politicians. Where did that number 40 billion come from?
Stan Rosenberg: You know, I just pulled that out of the air because I didn't remember the number.
Daniel Satinsky: It was a big number.
Stan Rosenberg: It was a big number. And they said where is, when is this coming? And of course, we're talking to people and stuff, but we were talking to governors. The governor of Pskov. And so therefore. And the governor of Pskov would, of course, have a relationship with the president and with the Federal Duma and everything. So we knew we were being asked on behalf not the governor because the governor doesn't get the $40 billion or whatever, it's going to be the federal government. So we would ask what you are working on? What are you thinking about? What are the challenges society's facing? Never judgmentally. And then we didn't get into, well this is how we do it. We didn't try to lecture them and say this is the way, but we would engage with them in a way that there was discussion and a dialog, and then we could eventually say, well do you think it would help if we work together on blank? So the first major thing you think would help if we worked on a blank was improving medical technology and access to medical technology. And they did it on behalf of the Poor People's Hospital. So there was the rich people's hospital, and then there was the poor people's hospital. And so we were talking to the Boston Medical Center as opposed to Mass General.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay.
Stan Rosenberg: And so do you think you could help us find. And we said, well, let's see. And we eventually connected.
Daniel Satinsky: The people you were talking to are ordinary citizens. They're not the elected officials but they're people that you met through your travel.
Stan Rosenberg: Well. Oh, okay. So I'll use a few names. So Romansova. Well, why am I blanking? Tanya? Yeah. So Tanya Romansova was the government affairs person for the City of Pskov. And then she was the government affairs person for the province for the. Was the. And so we developed an extremely close relationship with her. She would often be the translator. She would be the host. We planned all of our visits with her as the go-between. And so she was part of the government but she also would bring in people who were not part of the government. And so we'd be sitting at the V's table and that, and then at Alexia's table and so on. And so we would slowly be building these relationships in civil society as well as in government. And so we found a foundation that specializes in finding and shipping containers of used but usable medical equipment to second and third world situations. And so we partnered with them and over time we probably did for over a four-year period, four, five, six-year period, we probably did for shipping containers full of equipment. And when the equipment in the first batch got there, which was quite challenging but we raised all the money. The foundation found the equipment. They took care of the shipping. We paid the bill. We all organized to make sure that when it got there, it would get into Pskov and then it would get into the right hands.
Daniel Satinsky: Right.
Stan Rosenberg: So it wasn't the secondary market. That wouldn't be cleared of the best stuff. And we were very successful at being able to keep the rails, keep stuff within the rails. And when a couple of the doctors went in to see the shipment of material, they went crazy. They were like, wow. Because they were used to getting piles of junk, unused mattresses and whatever. And so when they saw the quality of what was in the shipment, they got very excited and started making lists because they were figuring if you guys can bring us this without telling you what we needed. So as I said, we probably did four shipments over the course of six or so years.
Daniel Satinsky: And remember roughly what it would cost for those shipments.
Stan Rosenberg: I think we were spending probably $30,000. All in, you know, getting it there. I'm sorry. Finding it. Shipping it. Getting it unloaded. Getting it through customs. Because there were fees and stuff like that on the other end. I'm going to say $30,000. And so then they started making lists. The doctor who took the greatest interest was an immunologist, and he found these in perfectly good workable condition. But machines that you need in an infectious disease lab which they did not have at the Poor People's Hospital. So he put together a list and gave it to us. And when we learned what he was all about, we agreed that we would bring an immunologist in our next delegation.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay.
Stan Rosenberg: And so that's one of the ways in which our group grew over time. And that's one example. Same thing happened with cranberry production. Tourism development. So we found things that were of interest and made sense to them. For various reasons that were consistent with their needs. So we were never telling them you should do this. We were always listening, and they were saying things like we're trying to get the airport reorganized and expanded so we could bring planes in. Well, why did you want to bring planes in? Well, we want to build a tourism industry. Why do you want to build a tourism industry? Well, you know, we were the first city in Russia. Pskov was where Russia began. We have all of this history. We have all of this. Interesting. So we said isn't that exciting? So Pskov was the first landing point in Russia? You understand us. It's so exciting. Well, of course we understand you because we have Plymouth, Massachusetts, which is where the pilgrims landed. So we were the birthplace of America. Look at another thing we have in common. And it was. This is how it went. It rolled like this for 25 years. About 25 years.
Daniel Satinsky: That is amazing.
Stan Rosenberg: So I gave you a couple of examples right? I gave you a deeper example in the medical and then I touched on a series of other examples of how we did this and how it kept expanding and expanding and expanding. So let me go back to the medical. So we were able to get him the material for his lab and we brought the immunologist over. That led to a deepening relationship. And they came up with projects and ideas that related to what they were doing. And so it built. So shortly after the immunology lab got set up, there was discussion about STDs because, of course, immunology takes you to disease, infectious disease which takes you to societal problem of sexually transmitted diseases which, of course, in Russia nobody talks about because it doesn't exist.
Daniel Satinsky: Right.
Stan Rosenberg: And AIDS didn't exist except the doctors knew it did. And so they said what can we do together around AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases? So we built a program. And brought it to Rotary International. And we got funded $300,000 over a three-year period to build out a series of programs and projects relating to helping young people. Give me a second to bring back the phrase.
Daniel Satinsky: Right.
Stan Rosenberg: So to help them make appropriate personal decisions.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay.
Stan Rosenberg: And that led to the creation of curriculum. It led to the creation of a youth center that we funded. And then eventually the city picked it up, and it was a place for young people to come to gather and to be in a youth center to have constructive time with activities that would be appropriate for young people, taking up more of their time. So they weren't getting into trouble like getting into drugs, weren't getting into sexual contact that was going to be problematic for them.
Daniel Satinsky: So that quick question was there a Rotary Club there in Pskov?
Stan Rosenberg: Not at the time, and I don't think there is. Oh, they formed a Rotary Club. That's part of the project.
Daniel Satinsky: Part of the project?
Stan Rosenberg: The Rotary Club and Victor Baybekov. Who is the oligarch in the region? Was the guy who took charge of helping to organize the Rotary Club. I don't know if it's still going. I don't know the situation, but they organized a fledgling Rotary Club as part of the project.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay. Got it. Got it.
Stan Rosenberg: So that's the pattern that we went through. We would identify something with the help of our friends. And our group of friends kept growing and growing and growing in Pskov, and we would keep adding people here with the specialties that were relevant to the work that they wanted to do there. And so the relationships became extremely deep and close. I mean there was a list of families that the delegation or portions of the delegation visited at their dacha with their home or both. Every single visit. They exchanged gifts. They exchanged holiday greetings and birthday greetings. You know, the good times, the sad times. And it was just, it was amazing what could be built.
Daniel Satinsky: So how many people were involved in your group?
Stan Rosenberg: You know, we never calculated how many people we took over. But on one trip, we had about 15 in our delegation. And concurrent with that, we organized the tourism. Visit which was a tour. Not part of our government thing. They were tourists. And there were 30 of those people. So at one time on one visit, there were about 50 people from Massachusetts walking the streets of Pskov. And there were a couple of other times where we organized the hunting group, Americans who went hunting in Russia.
Daniel Satinsky: Boy.
Stan Rosenberg: Do I have stories from that.
Daniel Satinsky: I can imagine there was no alcohol involved in those stories, was there?
Stan Rosenberg: Absolutely none. And there weren't trees either with loaded guns. And sitting in trees with loaded guns in the middle of the night waiting for the bears. They came back with such story. They partied until the wee hours and then they said well it's time to go hunting. They took them into the woods. They got them up on the branches of big, big branches of big trees. They said you sit here that you must eat. The bears will come up.
Daniel Satinsky: And you have to get them good before they get you good.
Stan Rosenberg: Well these were very experienced American hunters. They crapped their pants. They were so scared. They were like they've been toasting for hours. Toasting and eating and stories. And they did the whole thing and then went hunting the morning, they go up into the trees and they're like what happened? Stan, what did you get us into? By the way, I was not there. I was comfortably in my bed.
Daniel Satinsky: But they tied themselves to the tree.
Stan Rosenberg: I have no idea. But they still tell the stories. But now with affection as well. There's laughter because it's a once in a lifetime experience, you know. And how many Americans have ever gone hunting with locals in Russia? So they have. That's their big fish story. So that's Pskov.
Daniel Satinsky: You would say probably hundreds of.
Stan Rosenberg: People. Hundreds and hundreds.
Daniel Satinsky: Waited in some form or.
Stan Rosenberg: Other and you're like, hundreds of people went back and forth contributed. Did you know about consultation calls and I mean all kinds of things. Hundreds and hundreds of people. But there was this core group of about 15 of us. And any given time there would be a dozen to 8 to 12 on a trip over. It just varied what the agenda was who was available. How much money could I raise? Because I was the nominal head of the group. And I drove a lot of the fundraising. Terry Murray, who you've met, helped a lot with the fundraising. Henry Rosenbach helped with the fundraising. Jay Curley over Blue Cross Blue Shield. We touched so many different places. And I'm going to say we probably raised a million and a half to $2 million well over a 20-year period.
Daniel Satinsky: So when you went to raise money, what was your pitch?
Stan Rosenberg: We didn't have to pay them. Exactly. That was it. You know, so if we called the foundation that was in Massachusetts like Blue Cross Foundation, I think contributed once the Blue Cross of Massachusetts company contributed every year 10 or $15,000 a year. And that was based on it. The senators are making another pilgrimage. They're bringing a doc, this doctor, that doctor. We ought to support them. Jay Curley, who was their vice president for government affairs at that time was a former Senate staffer. And he went, started going on the trips. So you know and then of course when you get a $300,000 three-year grant out of the Rotary Foundation, I think I'm remembering that accurately. I could be exaggerating but I think I'm.
Daniel Satinsky: Remembering. I think I remember you telling me about it. I don't remember the exact number but.
Stan Rosenberg: Something like 300,000.
Daniel Satinsky: And so people's commitment was to you and the work you were doing. And they knew there were tangible results on the other side I assume.
Stan Rosenberg: Yes. And then it became part of their portfolio because a lot of them ended up coming over. And participating. Some of them were on calls. You know, they got reports from us about what was happening as you just said. So it was very concrete. But eventually they became invested as well. The better they knew us.
Daniel Satinsky: Right. And this project had at its base to build bridges between Massachusetts people and people in Pskov, correct?
Stan Rosenberg: Totally.
Daniel Satinsky: And while you were doing that, I mean I guess what I'm trying to ask, you know, trying to figure out how to get at when I went to ask which is, were you felt you were building a better world if you will through this.
Stan Rosenberg: The Cuno.
Daniel Satinsky: Yeah. And so it.
Stan Rosenberg: Was a personal commitment. It grew out of helping a friend at UMass. Which helped me because I get paid I think $7,000 for teaching the course. Maybe it was 3,000. I don't remember but I got to spend and I got to go to Russia for the first time. This is paid. But at that point of course coming to Russia all expenses paid wouldn't that mean staying in a $5 a night hotel room with brown water. On a board for a bed? You didn't have a choice of food. I got three squares a day. When you walk into the restaurant area of the hotel and whatever they put in front of you is what you ate.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay.
Stan Rosenberg: So like I was at home. And by the way, I lost 5 pounds and I never ate better.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay.
Stan Rosenberg: Really good. I walked to work every day at the university and at the Polytechnic. And it was a mile and a half walk from the hotel. And it was November. So it was cold. And so yeah, I experienced my first. That was my very first trip. And I was experiencing the beginning of winter.
Daniel Satinsky: And did you at any point say to yourself why did I do this? Or were you also the opposite saying wow this is just.
Stan Rosenberg: No I didn't. It was the opposite. It's in my nature to roll from one thing to the other. Once something starts I may. I don't give up on something. And when I see an opportunity it's the first opportunity was to do something I'd never done before. Teach a course. Go to Russia. Experience three weeks in Russia. And you know I was a legislator. And at that time salaries were quite low. So you know supplemental income. And then it came back to me and said would you continue? I didn't hesitate for a second. I said absolutely. And by the way that first trip that it was so hard you know and I remember the weekend before the final week of our stay there the other teacher and I were in a van going to a jury to see the caves as a tourism thing. And we were quiet in the van and we turned to each other at one point and we could both tell what the other was thinking and we were on the verge of tears because we were so tired of the gray. Everything was gray. The buildings were gray, the rooms were gray, the food was gray, the people were gray, the sky was gray. Everything was gray and it was cold. And we never saw. We hardly ever saw anyone smile. Everyone you know we were still strangers to them. Number one. Number two I was a government official so people were afraid of me. Because the word of course got around. He's a senator. He lives large in America. And because they got it wrong. Didn't live large in America. I live large in Massachusetts. But even then that would be a somewhat of an exaggeration. But I did not hesitate for a second when I got the opportunity to continue because once I got home and reflected on the visit and the experience I said jeez this is so important. And the real opportunity to be helpful. And incidentally I'll tell you this other piece I starting about my fifth sixth seventh visit. I gently asked my, our contact Tatiana Romance of is there a Jewish community in Pskov? And she who? She's a very deeply religious woman, very very used to church all the time. Very motivated by Russian Orthodox church values. So she was kind of looked a little bit odd awkward at the moment when I asked it. But I guess it in a way probably didn't surprise her. And she said no there is no identified Jewish community here. And I asked the question a few more times over the subsequent years. Any change in the status? And then one year I had to. I occasionally went over by myself when things were getting a little rocky in terms of planning the next exchange. So sometimes I would fly over myself and spend a week and a half to try to move things along. And at this particular time I had to make a decision whether to do it or not. And the only time I could do it was during Passover week. I guess I just decided I got to do this so I'm just going to do it. Because we were very deep into the relationship by then. I mean we were 12-15 years in.
Daniel Satinsky: Wow.
Stan Rosenberg: So my first trip was probably sometime in 92 or early 93. So if you do the math it probably was over 20 years. And I'll tell you in a minute why the relationship went. Because it's different today than it was. But to finish up the story because it's a really good story, I showed up for this visit in April and I came down the elevator to the lobby of the hotel to get my ride and I'm early as I usually try to be. And I'm standing in the lobby and I'm positioned in a way that I can see the elevator. And I heard the elevator door open and I just happened to glance over and out walked two guys with black suits black hats. White shirts. And I say.
Daniel Satinsky: I see them.
Stan Rosenberg: Yes. And I thought to myself. What are they doing here? And they walked into the lobby and they were obviously waiting for their ride. And so I'm looking at them and they see me looking at them and then they're looking at me. And so finally I walk over and I said excuse me do you speak English? And the guy said Everybody in Brooklyn speaks. I said okay. I said what are you doing here? And he said we're here from Yeshiva University and we are going to be leading Seder here at the Jewish Community Center. And I said really? And they said yeah. And then I said thank you. And I walked away and they chatted a little bit and then they walked over to me and they said well you seem to be interested in this. So we have some chicken soup cooking in the room. We have extra mats. We have extra wine if you'd like. We'd be happy to share it with you. And I said that's very nice of you but I'd rather go to the Seder. And I said really? And I said yes. And I said okay. So let's see what we can arrange. And I told this to Tatiana Tanya Romance of when she arrived. And she said oh yes we have a Jewish community center now. So really tell me about this. And she said well about six months ago the mayor got a call from somebody in town and she mentioned the woman's name who told the mayor that they had been funded by an international Jewish organization to open a Jewish community center in Pskov. And they had purchased an apartment in one of the apartment buildings at the basement the first floor. And they were going to officially open the center. And would he come to the official opening? And so of course he consulted with Tanya who was his foreign affairs person and community affairs person and said of course you should do this. And so she said the mayor officially opened the center with them about three months ago.
Daniel Satinsky: Wow.
Stan Rosenberg: And I then told her my story and said I'd really like to go to the Seder. She asked when it was, and I said tonight. She said, well, we have a dinner planned with a group of people, but I think I can arrange it if you can stop by and do a toast with them at the official dinner, and then we'll give you a ride over to the Jewish Community Center. We agreed and did it. I went to the first Seder in Pskov since 1917. What an experience. It was overwhelming. The story as it unfolded that night, I won't bore you with all the details, but it went on for a couple of hours. There were people in their 80s, and toward the middle of the Seder before the meal, there was a knock on the door which brought silence to the room. This had happened repeatedly through the evening. Every time somebody new arrived, there was a knock on the door and everybody went quiet. Somebody went to the door and looked through the hole. The last group to come in were two kids, one high school age and one college age. It was like a scene in a movie. The door opens and the kids walk in. The place went crazy. People were jumping up and down and crying. They had not seen children in 80 years. They thought their kids were lost. They thought their grandchildren were lost. They thought the community was lost. It turns out that these two kids had learned about their Jewish heritage because somebody had come to speak to their school about the new Jewish Community Center. They realized that their grandparents were Jewish. So they went home and said to their parents, we want to learn about our Jewish heritage. The parents said we can't tell you anything because our parents never talked about it. The kids convinced their parents to let them explore their heritage. That night they came to the Seder.
Daniel Satinsky: Incredible.
Stan Rosenberg: It was so moving.
Daniel Satinsky: And these people considered themselves Jewish, although they hadn't practiced their religion.
Stan Rosenberg: And knew they had Jewish roots. They identified about 140 individuals in the community. Many of them started to frequent the Jewish Community Center. I raised money for that, too. I arranged for money to bring a rabbi once a month to Pskov for Jewish education and religious ceremonies. That lasted five years.
Daniel Satinsky: Where was this rabbi from?
Stan Rosenberg: Saint Petersburg.
Daniel Satinsky: Oh, okay.
Stan Rosenberg: It was an Orthodox rabbi, and there was some trepidation about it being Orthodox, but it is what it is.
Daniel Satinsky: But there's no reform anywhere in the world except the U.S.
Stan Rosenberg: Right. Then, I raised money for four years in a row for them to do a Shabbat weekend at a camp. They would leave the city, go into the country, and spend Friday night through Sunday morning. They did Shabbat in the camp and arranged to have a rabbi stay with them.
Daniel Satinsky: Wow. It's amazing. I mean, in theory, it should have been pretty easy to identify people as Jewish because their passports would have indicated that they were Jewish.
Stan Rosenberg: When I asked the question, I was asking a government official. A general question: is there an organized Jewish community? And the answer was no.
Daniel Satinsky: There wasn't, right?
Stan Rosenberg: And eventually there was. On my next trip, she put something on the agenda that I didn't recognize. It turned out she took me to a place where there was a stone erected in memory of a pogrom that occurred in Pskov. We did Kaddish. I asked if she minded and...
Daniel Satinsky: Those kinds of experiences, they just hit so deep emotionally, you know?
Stan Rosenberg: Yeah.
Daniel Satinsky: They do.
Stan Rosenberg: She was fantastic. We were like brother and sister. We got so close, and she eventually started confiding in me. We went to her mother's home, and her mother made khachapuri for us every year. She couldn't wait to see us. Tanya was just that kind of person. So when I raised the religious thing, it was very important to her because she was deeply religious. It meant a lot.
Daniel Satinsky: Even though you didn't have the same spirituality, you had a spiritual side to your life that you could share and reveal.
Stan Rosenberg: In the second grant, which was the three-year US grant, we started being invited to people's homes. When we went into people's homes, we saw how simply and compactly the average person lived. The second was the food. We figured that a whole month's food was on the table when we walked in.
Daniel Satinsky: The hospitality and the sense...
Stan Rosenberg: Yeah.
Daniel Satinsky: ...of hospitality was so important to them, that they were willing to give you whatever they had. And so that's all part of the relationship that you built.
Stan Rosenberg: Because we were in their homes, they started to relax more and tell us about their family, show us pictures. We were mostly political people at the beginning. We were academic and political people, but there were always political people in the group. Some of us were with the academics, so we were the icebreakers. The politicians took care of creating a friendly environment, courtesy, excitement, and appreciation of being in their homes. So the relationship started to grow right away.
Daniel Satinsky: Yeah.
Stan Rosenberg: And so by the second or third time, you know, the grant went on for three years. So maybe the second or the third time, they've now invited their kids, they've invited the grandkids, and we started to get a real sense of familiarity with each other. It was so.
Daniel Satinsky: And it's these relationships more than any grand ideals of U.S.-Russia friendship that really drive this.
Stan Rosenberg: Yeah, totally. They would say things like, governments don't tell the truth. We were smart enough to know that America wasn't the basket case that was being presented to us. And we said, we know that Russian people are just like us. They have families, they have jobs, they want to get their kids educated. So we're all the same. Governments are governments, people are people.
Daniel Satinsky: So when Clinton bombed Belgrade, did that impact your relationships? Did people want to know from you why this happened? Was it part of your discourse?
Stan Rosenberg: We would exchange. Basically, if you think about it this way, we were there one week a year, right? If there was a second trip, it was usually me for one week. So for 50 weeks, none of us were with them. So before the bad things that happened on both sides, there was a very small chance that we were actually present with each other when it was going on. So there were exchanges of emails, usually very carefully written on either side or both sides, depending upon the situation. You remember when the submarines, a bunch of Russian sailors died in a submarine accident? So whenever things like that happened, we would exchange heartfelt expressions of condolence and sympathy and unity with them in spirit, and they would do the same with us. So any time there was something significant that was painful on either side, the other side would respond by reaching out. Always reaching out first and then the other side expressing appreciation for caring enough.
Daniel Satinsky: And so, outside of the people you were close with, was there suspicion? Were the security services wanting to know, well, what are these people really doing?
Stan Rosenberg: We knew we were being followed at various times. The first six years, ten visits, everything was in the guardrails. Everything was scheduled. We didn't veer off. The bar that people went to in the evening was in the hotel. We could tell the people who were sitting in the lobby who were FSB or whatever. We knew, we felt and understood their presence. As the years went on, the oligarch Viktor started playing a role around that, where he would have his boys aware of where we were going and what we were doing. Things loosened up. Members of our delegation would go to a club on their own without a translator, without anybody official. But there was always somebody there, even though they didn't know it. It wasn't the government people. There may have been government people, but Viktor also had people. There were times when somebody in our group got themselves into a difficult situation because they'd had too much to drink, didn't know enough of the social norms, didn't know the language. We had one member of our delegation who was black, and he was spit on walking down the street. Viktor took care of things like that. When one of our delegation got in a bit of a problem, there were 2 or 3 other members of the delegation with them. Somebody came over and in Russian spoke to the guys who were creating the situation, and it ended.
Daniel Satinsky: I see. So Viktor was, to use the Russian word, he was your "krisha," right?
Stan Rosenberg: No, he was...
Daniel Satinsky: "Krisha" means roof. But it's...
Stan Rosenberg: Not because...
Daniel Satinsky: Everybody had to have a "krisha," meaning oversight by somebody important, right?
Stan Rosenberg: He was ours. He was our guy. By the way, can you say what time it is? Because I have a two...
Daniel Satinsky: Yeah, it's 1:36, and you have until two.
Stan Rosenberg: So Viktor was that to us. He called us brother and sister. Terry was his sister. Stan and Mark were his brothers. I stayed at his home while everybody else was at the hotel. For probably the last 7 to 10 visits, I stayed in his house instead of at the hotel. So we became part of the fabric of this community, of people who were also connected with each other there. We became part of that community.
Daniel Satinsky: And how did Viktor make his money?
Stan Rosenberg: When the wall came down and they started dividing up the roles and the assets, he was on the business side for the first number of years. He then ran for governor unsuccessfully, so he never actually went into the government. But he got the paper factory, he got a ton of forests, he got the fishing boats, he got the canneries, he got the telecommunications. He was the oligarch for the region in charge of all of those pieces. And he built business from there.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay, so which of these projects that you did over this period of time are you most proud of?
Stan Rosenberg: It's not the projects, it's the relationships. The depth of the relationship, the sincerity of the connection that got developed. It's exactly what countries and people should be doing. Through citizen diplomacy, right on the street level, we were developing these kinds of relationships, and people learned about us and what we would do. We were in the press for the last 15 years of the relationship. We were in the press every visit. Announcing projects, announcing grants, and they organized all of that. We didn't do any of that. So we would be interviewed by TV, we would do press conferences, and they just loved having their American friends there.
Daniel Satinsky: Right.
Stan Rosenberg: And people would recognize us on the streets.
Daniel Satinsky: They'd see you on TV or...
Stan Rosenberg: And after 5 or 7 years of that, even if they didn't see us this time, some people might recognize us because we were back again.
Daniel Satinsky: Exactly. Most people didn't go back again. So, what's the backside of that and what remains of this relationship?
Stan Rosenberg: Okay. So, this is the careful part. When Putin was reelected and came back into government, he started to shut down the mechanisms that encouraged exchange, citizen diplomacy, and the growth of NGOs (non-governmental organizations). There weren't a lot of NGOs, but we connected with many of the existing or developing NGOs in Pskov. New laws were passed that were discriminatory against gay individuals, and at least two members of our delegation were regularly gay. So, the decision was made that if we can't all go, we're not going to go because that would mean discriminating against members of the group. We stopped traveling back and forth. I got there 24 times; my 25th time, I was battling cancer and had to cancel, but the group went, and that ended up being the last visit. That was about seven years ago, around 2015.
Daniel Satinsky: 2015.
Stan Rosenberg: I never got to go as Senate President. The laws got passed after that, and the relationship continues in the following way: for most of the last five years, I still had money available in an account. When I had a courier, I'd send $5,000 or $10,000 at a time, and somebody from Pskov would go to Saint Petersburg for coffee to say hello to my friend. That supported the continuation of programs for another 4 or 5 years. There's still money in the account, about $30,000, but I've not been able to connect with the woman who was running the foundation. I fear she may have passed. Tanya Romance of has been battling cancer for the last six months, and we're in almost weekly touch. She said she's in good spirits but still fighting. There is another friend there, also named Tanya, who would pick up where she left off if necessary. But without finding Nora, I'm not raising expectations because I don't have money to give or a position from which to raise money anymore.
Daniel Satinsky: You know, I think it might have been Kovalenko who is a fitness nut and a Facebook friend of mine. He was just in Skoff with his family. This UMass connection and these people who came with it, right? If you decide you want to try to follow up, they would be people to talk to.
Stan Rosenberg: About Sergei. Sergei's wife is Natasha. They go to Skoff at least once every year or two. That would be the logical way to handle this. I'll redouble my interest in finding out where the money is. I didn't even think about that.
Daniel Satinsky: And the other woman I talked to, Sasha, a professional. I don't know if you remember her.
Stan Rosenberg: I remember her, I didn't know her well, but I've met her.
Daniel Satinsky: I haven't talked to these people in several years. There were lots of reasons to at one time and there haven't been recently.
Stan Rosenberg: Right.
Daniel Satinsky: If I can be of help to you in doing that, just let me know.
Stan Rosenberg: Thinking about Sergei, why didn't I think about that? I know how to reach him, and I know he goes every year or two. He and Natasha bought a beautiful apartment. They were fixing it up, and her parents were going to live there until they move back to Skoff, which I assume they'll probably retire there. I don't think they're going to give up their careers here.
Daniel Satinsky: Do you think Terry Murray would be willing to talk to me about all this stuff or interested in talking to me?
Stan Rosenberg: I think she probably would because she loved that whole chapter and really got into it. If you wanted to do that, just between you and me, she and I haven't spoken for a few years. She was part of bringing me down. She helped me get there, but when things went sideways, some of her friends were unhappy that I got there. When they saw the opportunity to take me out, they joined in. I'll never say that to her. Someday I may talk with her, but in politics, a lot goes unsaid. I don't want to be part of connecting you, but we should think about how you could do that.
Daniel Satinsky: Yeah, that's very unfortunate. I'm sorry that I think.
Stan Rosenberg: And she helped me get there.
Daniel Satinsky: Right.
Stan Rosenberg: But she had a bunch of friends who were unhappy that I got there. When things went sideways, they saw the opportunity to take me out and joined in to make sure it happened. I'll never say that to her, and someday I may talk with her, but in politics, a lot goes unsaid.
Stan Rosenberg: Something like 300,000.
Daniel Satinsky: And so people's commitment was to you and the work you were doing. And they knew there were tangible results on the other side I assume.
Stan Rosenberg: Yes. And then it became part of their portfolio because a lot of them ended up coming over. And participating. Some of them were on calls. You know, they got reports from us about what was happening as you just said. So it was very concrete. But eventually they became invested as well. The better they knew us.
Daniel Satinsky: Right. And this project had at its base to build bridges between Massachusetts people and people in Pskov, correct?
Stan Rosenberg: Totally.
Daniel Satinsky: And while you were doing that, I mean I guess what I'm trying to ask, you know, trying to figure out how to get at when I went to ask which is, were you felt you were building a better world if you will through this.
Stan Rosenberg: The Cuno.
Daniel Satinsky: Yeah. And so it.
Stan Rosenberg: Was a personal commitment. It grew out of helping a friend at UMass. Which helped me because I get paid I think $7,000 for teaching the course. Maybe it was 3,000. I don't remember but I got to spend and I got to go to Russia for the first time. This is paid. But at that point of course coming to Russia all expenses paid wouldn't that mean staying in a $5 a night hotel room with brown water. On a board for a bed? You didn't have a choice of food. I got three squares a day. When you walk into the restaurant area of the hotel and whatever they put in front of you is what you ate.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay.
Stan Rosenberg: So like I was at home. And by the way, I lost 5 pounds and I never ate better.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay.
Stan Rosenberg: Really good. I walked to work every day at the university and at the Polytechnic. And it was a mile and a half walk from the hotel. And it was November. So it was cold. And so yeah, I experienced my first. That was my very first trip. And I was experiencing the beginning of winter.
Daniel Satinsky: And did you at any point say to yourself why did I do this? Or were you also the opposite saying wow this is just.
Stan Rosenberg: No I didn't. It was the opposite. It's in my nature to roll from one thing to the other. Once something starts I may. I don't give up on something. And when I see an opportunity it's the first opportunity was to do something I'd never done before. Teach a course. Go to Russia. Experience three weeks in Russia. And you know I was a legislator. And at that time salaries were quite low. So you know supplemental income. And then it came back to me and said would you continue? I didn't hesitate for a second. I said absolutely. And by the way that first trip that it was so hard you know and I remember the weekend before the final week of our stay there the other teacher and I were in a van going to a jury to see the caves as a tourism thing. And we were quiet in the van and we turned to each other at one point and we could both tell what the other was thinking and we were on the verge of tears because we were so tired of the gray. Everything was gray. The buildings were gray, the rooms were gray, the food was gray, the people were gray, the sky was gray. Everything was gray and it was cold. And we never saw. We hardly ever saw anyone smile. Everyone you know we were still strangers to them. Number one. Number two I was a government official so people were afraid of me. Because the word of course got around. He's a senator. He lives large in America. And because they got it wrong. Didn't live large in America. I live large in Massachusetts. But even then that would be a somewhat of an exaggeration. But I did not hesitate for a second when I got the opportunity to continue because once I got home and reflected on the visit and the experience I said jeez this is so important. And the real opportunity to be helpful. And incidentally I'll tell you this other piece I starting about my fifth sixth seventh visit. I gently asked my, our contact Tatiana Romance of is there a Jewish community in Pskov? And she who? She's a very deeply religious woman, very very used to church all the time. Very motivated by Russian Orthodox church values. So she was kind of looked a little bit odd awkward at the moment when I asked it. But I guess it in a way probably didn't surprise her. And she said no there is no identified Jewish community here. And I asked the question a few more times over the subsequent years. Any change in the status? And then one year I had to. I occasionally went over by myself when things were getting a little rocky in terms of planning the next exchange. So sometimes I would fly over myself and spend a week and a half to try to move things along. And at this particular time I had to make a decision whether to do it or not. And the only time I could do it was during Passover week. I guess I just decided I got to do this so I'm just going to do it. Because we were very deep into the relationship by then. I mean we were 12-15 years in.
Daniel Satinsky: Wow.
Stan Rosenberg: So my first trip was probably sometime in 92 or early 93. So if you do the math it probably was over 20 years. And I'll tell you in a minute why the relationship went. Because it's different today than it was. But to finish up the story because it's a really good story, I showed up for this visit in April and I came down the elevator to the lobby of the hotel to get my ride and I'm early as I usually try to be. And I'm standing in the lobby and I'm positioned in a way that I can see the elevator. And I heard the elevator door open and I just happened to glance over and out walked two guys with black suits black hats. White shirts. And I say.
Daniel Satinsky: I see them.
Stan Rosenberg: Yes. And I thought to myself. What are they doing here? And they walked into the lobby and they were obviously waiting for their ride. And so I'm looking at them and they see me looking at them and then they're looking at me. And so finally I walk over and I said excuse me do you speak English? And the guy said Everybody in Brooklyn speaks. I said okay. I said what are you doing here? And he said we're here from Yeshiva University and we are going to be leading Seder here at the Jewish Community Center. And I said really? And they said yeah. And then I said thank you. And I walked away and they chatted a little bit and then they walked over to me and they said well you seem to be interested in this. So we have some chicken soup cooking in the room. We have extra mats. We have extra wine if you'd like. We'd be happy to share it with you. And I said that's very nice of you but I'd rather go to the Seder. And I said really? And I said yes. And I said okay. So let's see what we can arrange. And I told this to Tatiana Tanya Romance of when she arrived. And she said oh yes we have a Jewish community center now. So really tell me about this. And she said well about six months ago the mayor got a call from somebody in town and she mentioned the woman's name who told the mayor that they had been funded by an international Jewish organization to open a Jewish community center in Pskov. And they had purchased an apartment in one of the apartment buildings at the basement the first floor. And they were going to officially open the center. And would he come to the official opening? And so of course he consulted with Tanya who was his foreign affairs person and community affairs person and said of course you should do this. And so she said the mayor officially opened the center with them about three months ago.
Daniel Satinsky: Wow.
Stan Rosenberg: And I then told her my story and said I'd really like to go to the Seder. She asked when it was, and I said tonight. She said, well, we have a dinner planned with a group of people, but I think I can arrange it if you can stop by and do a toast with them at the official dinner, and then we'll give you a ride over to the Jewish Community Center. We agreed and did it. I went to the first Seder in Pskov since 1917. What an experience. It was overwhelming. The story as it unfolded that night, I won't bore you with all the details, but it went on for a couple of hours. There were people in their 80s, and toward the middle of the Seder before the meal, there was a knock on the door which brought silence to the room. This had happened repeatedly through the evening. Every time somebody new arrived, there was a knock on the door and everybody went quiet. Somebody went to the door and looked through the hole. The last group to come in were two kids, one high school age and one college age. It was like a scene in a movie. The door opens and the kids walk in. The place went crazy. People were jumping up and down and crying. They had not seen children in 80 years. They thought their kids were lost. They thought their grandchildren were lost. They thought the community was lost. It turns out that these two kids had learned about their Jewish heritage because somebody had come to speak to their school about the new Jewish Community Center. They realized that their grandparents were Jewish. So they went home and said to their parents, we want to learn about our Jewish heritage. The parents said we can't tell you anything because our parents never talked about it. The kids convinced their parents to let them explore their heritage. That night they came to the Seder.
Daniel Satinsky: Incredible.
Stan Rosenberg: It was so moving.
Daniel Satinsky: And these people considered themselves Jewish, although they hadn't practiced their religion.
Stan Rosenberg: And knew they had Jewish roots. They identified about 140 individuals in the community. Many of them started to frequent the Jewish Community Center. I raised money for that, too. I arranged for money to bring a rabbi once a month to Pskov for Jewish education and religious ceremonies. That lasted five years.
Daniel Satinsky: Where was this rabbi from?
Stan Rosenberg: Saint Petersburg.
Daniel Satinsky: Oh, okay.
Stan Rosenberg: It was an Orthodox rabbi, and there was some trepidation about it being Orthodox, but it is what it is.
Daniel Satinsky: But there's no reform anywhere in the world except the U.S.
Stan Rosenberg: Right. Then, I raised money for four years in a row for them to do a Shabbat weekend at a camp. They would leave the city, go into the country, and spend Friday night through Sunday morning. They did Shabbat in the camp and arranged to have a rabbi stay with them.
Daniel Satinsky: Wow. It's amazing. I mean, in theory, it should have been pretty easy to identify people as Jewish because their passports would have indicated that they were Jewish.
Stan Rosenberg: When I asked the question, I was asking a government official. A general question: is there an organized Jewish community? And the answer was no.
Daniel Satinsky: There wasn't, right?
Stan Rosenberg: And eventually there was. On my next trip, she put something on the agenda that I didn't recognize. It turned out she took me to a place where there was a stone erected in memory of a pogrom that occurred in Pskov. We did Kaddish. I asked if she minded and...
Daniel Satinsky: Those kinds of experiences, they just hit so deep emotionally, you know?
Stan Rosenberg: Yeah.
Daniel Satinsky: They do.
Stan Rosenberg: She was fantastic. We were like brother and sister. We got so close, and she eventually started confiding in me. We went to her mother's home, and her mother made khachapuri for us every year. She couldn't wait to see us. Tanya was just that kind of person. So when I raised the religious thing, it was very important to her because she was deeply religious. It meant a lot.
Daniel Satinsky: Even though you didn't have the same spirituality, you had a spiritual side to your life that you could share and reveal.
Stan Rosenberg: In the second grant, which was the three-year US grant, we started being invited to people's homes. When we went into people's homes, we saw how simply and compactly the average person lived. The second was the food. We figured that a whole month's food was on the table when we walked in.
Daniel Satinsky: The hospitality and the sense...
Stan Rosenberg: Yeah.
Daniel Satinsky: ...of hospitality was so important to them, that they were willing to give you whatever they had. And so that's all part of the relationship that you built.
Stan Rosenberg: Because we were in their homes, they started to relax more and tell us about their family, show us pictures. We were mostly political people at the beginning. We were academic and political people, but there were always political people in the group. Some of us were with the academics, so we were the icebreakers. The politicians took care of creating a friendly environment, courtesy, excitement, and appreciation of being in their homes. So the relationship started to grow right away.
Daniel Satinsky: Yeah.
Stan Rosenberg: And so by the second or third time, you know, the grant went on for three years. So maybe the second or the third time, they've now invited their kids, they've invited the grandkids, and we started to get a real sense of familiarity with each other. It was so.
Daniel Satinsky: And it's these relationships more than any grand ideals of U.S.-Russia friendship that really drive this.
Stan Rosenberg: Yeah, totally. They would say things like, governments don't tell the truth. We were smart enough to know that America wasn't the basket case that was being presented to us. And we said, we know that Russian people are just like us. They have families, they have jobs, they want to get their kids educated. So we're all the same. Governments are governments, people are people.
Daniel Satinsky: So when Clinton bombed Belgrade, did that impact your relationships? Did people want to know from you why this happened? Was it part of your discourse?
Stan Rosenberg: We would exchange. Basically, if you think about it this way, we were there one week a year, right? If there was a second trip, it was usually me for one week. So for 50 weeks, none of us were with them. So before the bad things that happened on both sides, there was a very small chance that we were actually present with each other when it was going on. So there were exchanges of emails, usually very carefully written on either side or both sides, depending upon the situation. You remember when the submarines, a bunch of Russian sailors died in a submarine accident? So whenever things like that happened, we would exchange heartfelt expressions of condolence and sympathy and unity with them in spirit, and they would do the same with us. So any time there was something significant that was painful on either side, the other side would respond by reaching out. Always reaching out first and then the other side expressing appreciation for caring enough.
Daniel Satinsky: And so, outside of the people you were close with, was there suspicion? Were the security services wanting to know, well, what are these people really doing?
Stan Rosenberg: We knew we were being followed at various times. The first six years, ten visits, everything was in the guardrails. Everything was scheduled. We didn't veer off. The bar that people went to in the evening was in the hotel. We could tell the people who were sitting in the lobby who were FSB or whatever. We knew, we felt and understood their presence. As the years went on, the oligarch Viktor started playing a role around that, where he would have his boys aware of where we were going and what we were doing. Things loosened up. Members of our delegation would go to a club on their own without a translator, without anybody official. But there was always somebody there, even though they didn't know it. It wasn't the government people. There may have been government people, but Viktor also had people. There were times when somebody in our group got themselves into a difficult situation because they'd had too much to drink, didn't know enough of the social norms, didn't know the language. We had one member of our delegation who was black, and he was spit on walking down the street. Viktor took care of things like that. When one of our delegation got in a bit of a problem, there were 2 or 3 other members of the delegation with them. Somebody came over and in Russian spoke to the guys who were creating the situation, and it ended.
Daniel Satinsky: I see. So Viktor was, to use the Russian word, he was your "krisha," right?
Stan Rosenberg: No, he was...
Daniel Satinsky: "Krisha" means roof. But it's...
Stan Rosenberg: Not because...
Daniel Satinsky: Everybody had to have a "krisha," meaning oversight by somebody important, right?
Stan Rosenberg: He was ours. He was our guy. By the way, can you say what time it is? Because I have a two...
Daniel Satinsky: Yeah, it's 1:36, and you have until two.
Stan Rosenberg: So Viktor was that to us. He called us brother and sister. Terry was his sister. Stan and Mark were his brothers. I stayed at his home while everybody else was at the hotel. For probably the last 7 to 10 visits, I stayed in his house instead of at the hotel. So we became part of the fabric of this community, of people who were also connected with each other there. We became part of that community.
Daniel Satinsky: And how did Viktor make his money?
Stan Rosenberg: When the wall came down and they started dividing up the roles and the assets, he was on the business side for the first number of years. He then ran for governor unsuccessfully, so he never actually went into the government. But he got the paper factory, he got a ton of forests, he got the fishing boats, he got the canneries, he got the telecommunications. He was the oligarch for the region in charge of all of those pieces. And he built business from there.
Daniel Satinsky: Okay, so which of these projects that you did over this period of time are you most proud of?
Stan Rosenberg: It's not the projects, it's the relationships. The depth of the relationship, the sincerity of the connection that got developed. It's exactly what countries and people should be doing. Through citizen diplomacy, right on the street level, we were developing these kinds of relationships, and people learned about us and what we would do. We were in the press for the last 15 years of the relationship. We were in the press every visit. Announcing projects, announcing grants, and they organized all of that. We didn't do any of that. So we would be interviewed by TV, we would do press conferences, and they just loved having their American friends there.
Daniel Satinsky: Right.
Stan Rosenberg: And people would recognize us on the streets.
Daniel Satinsky: They'd see you on TV or...
Stan Rosenberg: And after 5 or 7 years of that, even if they didn't see us this time, some people might recognize us because we were back again.
Daniel Satinsky: Exactly. Most people didn't go back again. So, what's the backside of that and what remains of this relationship?
Stan Rosenberg: Okay. So, this is the careful part. When Putin was reelected and came back into government, he started to shut down the mechanisms that encouraged exchange, citizen diplomacy, and the growth of NGOs (non-governmental organizations). There weren't a lot of NGOs, but we connected with many of the existing or developing NGOs in Pskov. New laws were passed that were discriminatory against gay individuals, and at least two members of our delegation were regularly gay. So, the decision was made that if we can't all go, we're not going to go because that would mean discriminating against members of the group. We stopped traveling back and forth. I got there 24 times; my 25th time, I was battling cancer and had to cancel, but the group went, and that ended up being the last visit. That was about seven years ago, around 2015.
Daniel Satinsky: 2015.
Stan Rosenberg: I never got to go as Senate President. The laws got passed after that, and the relationship continues in the following way: for most of the last five years, I still had money available in an account. When I had a courier, I'd send $5,000 or $10,000 at a time, and somebody from Pskov would go to Saint Petersburg for coffee to say hello to my friend. That supported the continuation of programs for another 4 or 5 years. There's still money in the account, about $30,000, but I've not been able to connect with the woman who was running the foundation. I fear she may have passed. Tanya Romance of has been battling cancer for the last six months, and we're in almost weekly touch. She said she's in good spirits but still fighting. There is another friend there, also named Tanya, who would pick up where she left off if necessary. But without finding Nora, I'm not raising expectations because I don't have money to give or a position from which to raise money anymore.
Daniel Satinsky: You know, I think it might have been Kovalenko who is a fitness nut and a Facebook friend of mine. He was just in Skoff with his family. This UMass connection and these people who came with it, right? If you decide you want to try to follow up, they would be people to talk to.
Stan Rosenberg: About Sergei. Sergei's wife is Natasha. They go to Skoff at least once every year or two. That would be the logical way to handle this. I'll redouble my interest in finding out where the money is. I didn't even think about that.
Daniel Satinsky: And the other woman I talked to, Sasha, a professional. I don't know if you remember her.
Stan Rosenberg: I remember her, I didn't know her well, but I've met her.
Daniel Satinsky: I haven't talked to these people in several years. There were lots of reasons to at one time and there haven't been recently.
Stan Rosenberg: Right.
Daniel Satinsky: If I can be of help to you in doing that, just let me know.
Stan Rosenberg: Thinking about Sergei, why didn't I think about that? I know how to reach him, and I know he goes every year or two. He and Natasha bought a beautiful apartment. They were fixing it up, and her parents were going to live there until they move back to Skoff, which I assume they'll probably retire there. I don't think they're going to give up their careers here.
Daniel Satinsky: Do you think Terry Murray would be willing to talk to me about all this stuff or interested in talking to me?
Stan Rosenberg: I think she probably would because she loved that whole chapter and really got into it. If you wanted to do that, just between you and me, she and I haven't spoken for a few years. She was part of bringing me down. She helped me get there, but when things went sideways, some of her friends were unhappy that I got there. When they saw the opportunity to take me out, they joined in. I'll never say that to her. Someday I may talk with her, but in politics, a lot goes unsaid. I don't want to be part of connecting you, but we should think about how you could do that.
Daniel Satinsky: Yeah, that's very unfortunate. I'm sorry that I think.
Stan Rosenberg: And she helped me get there.
Daniel Satinsky: Right.
Stan Rosenberg: But she had a bunch of friends who were unhappy that I got there. When things went sideways, they saw the opportunity to take me out and joined in to make sure it happened. I'll never say that to her, and someday I may talk with her, but in politics, a lot goes unsaid.
Subcribe to our newsletter
You will receive our biweekly newsletter with the most relevant Russia-related research news.